Fanfics - author and reader's POV

[katikat]

Fanfiction, love it. Love to read it and love to write it. But on both sides of this fanfic-y fence I encounter problems...

As an author: My biggest problem is keeping the characters IC - in-character - in h/c and/or angsty fics. The hurt!part is easy, even their reaction to said hurt. But what about the comfort? What's too little, what's too much? What's still IC and what's already OOC - out-of-character? How far can you go and still keep the characters recognizable?

I mean, take for example Supernatural - that one is quite easy. Basically, everything goes XP We've seen both Sam and Dean hurt, we've seen them cry and hug and take care each other - so, as long as the author avoids stupid pet names, everything else goes.

But what about White Collar? Several times we've seen Neal go all teary-eyed and/or scared, but so far, there hasn't been any serious h/c on the show. I mean, Neal is the resident damsel in distress and Peter's usual reaction to "Neal in peril" is anger - at Rice, at Fowler... But I'm not sure how Peter would react if he had to actually comfort someone - his "cowboy up" speech suggests that he would not go all mushy, so... We need more data!

As a reader: My pet-peeve? OOC behavior. Cringe-worthy pet names - that one hurts. I just can't imagine Peter calling Neal "my boy" or whatnot, yowza! /o\ I mean, Peter barely calls Elizabeth "honey"!

Another thing - when I read a fic and the description just doesn't fit. How did character A and character B get from the kitchen into the living room? Or when they are in a certain position together - like sitting on a couch and hugging - and I just can't imagine it, no matter how many times I read the description. Is he leaning against her with his back? If so, then how can she be hugging him like that?

A short while ago, I read a fic that many people had raved about - and I could barely get through it. In it, El was standing at the foot of the stairs, Neal and Peter were upstairs, but suddenly, El was leading Neal towards the couch. How did he get downstairs? When? While he and Peter were arguing? I need the author to tell me that, to walk me through it, even if in just a few short words!

So, what's your problems and/or pet-peeves?

Comments

[whitecollarfan.livejournal.com]

As a writer - I'm finding it very hard to come up with a way for Peter to comfort Neal that works with what I know of him. I got as far as a pat on the shoulder in my fic "Not There Yet" but anything more than that just wouldn't have worked for Peter. Though he does do a good job with Elizabeth in the final - hugging her - but then it's his wife.

Also I have to admit as much as I agree Neal is the resident damsel in distress I also see him as being very independent and weary of asking anyone for help. He's going to resist being comforted no matter what the situation is. Plus he's also got Mozzie and June - and it really annoys me when people leave them out of fics where Peter and Elizabeth are comforting Neal as if they're the only ones who can.

As a reader - I've got the same pet peeves as you - OOC behavior and cute pet names for any fandom. Anything that feels like people are regressing the characters to 5 year olds who get their feelings hurt over every little slight. Yeah sometimes people are harsh with each other and sometimes feelings are hurt but crying over it or running away and hiding from the big meany just seems over the top and OOC for a LOT of characters.

In White Collar I'm finding it annoying when people write everyone else using El as Elizabeth's name - That is PETER's nickname for his wife as far as I can tell - no one else uses it. Yeah Moz used it once but that's Moz. We haven't heard Neal use it at all and I doubt he ever would. Also I hate seeing it spelled any other way than "El".

Another White Collar pet peeve that really worried me was a few people writing Peter and Hughes wanting Neal to carry a gun... one story went as far as threatening to send him back to jail if he didn't get a permit... Do people not realize that a) Neal is a convicted felon and b) he's not actually free? There's no f'ing way he'd ever he allowed to carry a gun even if he wanted to! No one is going to force him to carry one, let alone anyone in law enforcement.

Also I'm worried about stories that seem to be edging towards bashing Peter for being mean to Neal for keeping him on a short leash ... again - convicted felon and not actually a free man. I only read one or two stories like that so I'm not too worried but still the path towards character bashing is an easy one...

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I agree. I have no idea how Peter would comfort Neal. Yeah, he would hug his wife, but Neal? I think he would offer more of a silent support, just sit with Neal quietly, letting Neal lean into him if he needed, or lay an arm around his shoulders. I could see Peter going teary-eyed if he was confronted with someone else's pain that he wouldn't be able to fix, but he wouldn't actually cry, just tears in the eyes, you know?

I also think that Neal would have problem with accepting comfort. He's too independent, too used to fighting for himself. We've seen that he's more prone to tears than Peter (Vital Signs, Front Man, Out of the Box), but I could see him accept a hug or hug only as a reaction to something, I don't think that he would go out of his way to seek comfort like that.

With June, I think her comforting would be very motherly, she is basically Neal's mother figure on the show. With Mozzie... Hm, I guess he would offer help, but not real comfort, he would be just too awkward.

As nicknames go, I think that Neal would always call Elizabeth "Elizabeth", never El.

The gun thing is really annoying! It was the same with The Sentinel and Blair, when the authors kept forcing a gun on him.

I admit that I want to write a story, where Neal gets angry at Peter for always threatening him with prison, for telling everybody that he's a fellon even when it's not necessary (like in The Portrait), for every agent treating him like a second class citizen. I want Neal to tell Peter that it's not funny, that he has no idea what it's like in prison. Because the way Matt's playing it, you see how hurt Neal is every time Peter says something like - again, it's best shown in The Portrait, when the gallery owner tells Neal that Peter told her all about Neal and Neal just freezes.

[whitecollarfan.livejournal.com]

I have to admit... I don't have a lot of sympathy for Neal when it comes to prison. He IS a convicted felon after all and did do all the other things he was accused of even if they couldn't prove it. Yes, I get that prison can be hell and all of that but it doesn't make Neal's guilt any less. He did do a crime and does need to be punished for it.

I think it IS necessary for Peter to tell people that Neal is a felon because he is AND he's a con artist - he CANNOT be trusted with some things. And Neal keeps proving it by sneaking into places and doing things he shouldn't be doing. Yes fine usually he does it to help with the case but still, not the right thing.

I was really annoyed with Neal in the pilot when he managed to move into June's house. Peter's rant about how this is how the cons start was exactly what I was thinking. Plus why does he get to move into a nice house like that? The only thing that saved it was that June tells Peter that her husband was a convicted felon too so it's not like she doesn't know what she's getting into.

I'm not sure I'm seeing "hurt" when Peter says something like that... but then I know I don't read other people's emotions well so maybe I'm wrong.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I'm just the opposite - I have all the sympathy for Neal. Sure, he was a criminal, but there's punishment and then there's undue punishment. And a man like Neal would not leave a maximum security prison unscathed. He was a white collar criminal who never hurt anybody and who hates violence of any kind and they stuck him among the worst murderers and rapists and whatnot, the "worst of the worst" as they are called. He had no place in a prison like that and his escape proved that he stayed there of his own volition so a white collar prison would have been enough.

I always remember the audio commentary Justin Lin did for Fast&Furious where he talked about how they wanted Brian - played by the blue-eyed Paul Walker - to land in prison, but when he talked to convincts and asked about what would happen to a man like Brian in prison, they said outright that a man like that would get either raped every day or he would have to join the Aryans who would "protect" him.

Based on that, the reality of someone like Neal in a prison like that would be horrifying. It's not just about losing freedom for several years, it's about carrying emotional and psychical scars for the rest of his life.

I did not like that Peter went around telling everybody that Neal was a convict. I understood it when it was about June and her house. But not with the museum owner. He told her basically Neal's life story despite the fact that they were both wired and under surveillance. He could have informed her of Neal being in prison, that would be understandable, but he told her stuff that Neal might consider private and that was uncalled for.

Also, Peter wants Neal to do the right thing and not be a criminal anymore but he goes around telling everybody that he is a criminal and can't be trusted. So Neal's basically Don Quijote here - fighting a lost battle. Whatever he does, people will still only see him as a criminal, so why bother?

[whitecollarfan.livejournal.com]

I think I'm going to have to watch The Portrait again - I'm not remembering that Peter told her "EVERYTHING" - and who else does he tell?

I just wrote a Meta about Neal and how I feel about him but I'm realizing there's more to it than that. I can't ignore what you're saying about prison... *sigh* To me if you break the law you should be punished for it ... what else are we going to do with the criminals? Strongly tell them not to do it again and let them go on their way?

ETA: I think some of this might also be due to the writers not realizing what Neal in a maximum security prison would have gone through. They're trying to keep the show light and fluffy - but there are some rather serious implications they they obviously didn't consider.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with you and Peter - if you break the law and get caught, you need to be punished for that. That's what law is for after all. And I agree that the writers didn't think this through, not really. They obviously don't want to touch on that subject - and no wonder, there's no way to fluff that up.

In The Portrait, Peter told the woman that Neal was a criminal, that he escaped because of a girl etc. and there really was no reason to go into such detail. You see in that scene how that startled Neal, he just froze. I mean, obviously, it was there to show the growing trust between Peter and Neal, because Peter dialed it down pretty quickly after that.

But remember in Book of Hours, how angry Peter got when Ruiz refused to cooperate with them because of Neal? Peter was basically having the same misgivings, but it angered him when someone else used them against Neal. Again, it might have been there to basically kick Peter in the shin and tell him "See? That's exactly what you're doing!"

Basically, a nice development when you watch it in one row, when you see how Peter slowly learns not have a knee-jerk reaction to everything. Which lead to Home Invasion and their shouting match about Alex, a huge step back. But when Peter calmed down, he just knew that Neal did not do it.

[whitecollarfan.livejournal.com]

Ah now I see what you mean about Peter telling her. But that's not his entire life story... (Maybe I misunderstood what you were going for there)... I don't know... to me that's still fair game because it's exactly what Neal did. Different interpretations of what is too much information I guess.

I don't know I guess I have an easier time ignoring the bumps and small hurts when they're not so big. Home Invasion bugged me because I thought the fight at the car was stupid and made Peter look like a jerk - along with sitting on the couch all sweaty even if it was to get a look at the book. But like you said in the end Peter knew Neal didn't run.

I know fan fic is all about filling in the gaps and figuring out how characters feel but I do think sometimes people dig a little too deep into the characters feelings and drag things out more than they should. Yeah feelings might be getting hurt but do we need an epic story about how hurt the character is and how mean the other character was to them? Especially when we're talking about fictional people being written by others who may have different interpretations of things.

I say this having written "Not There Yet" which was about smoothing over the fight at the car in "Home Invasion" but even then I didn't fix everything and I wrote it from Peter's pov because I didn't think Peter did THAT much wrong.

[whitecollarfan.livejournal.com]

I also want to add for clarification - there are two different issues here:

1) Neal has committed several crimes and was convicted for them and should in fact be punished. He's out on parole which means he's still guilty for what he did. He also continues to do things that are illegal even if they are in the name of solving the other cases. He's a con artist and a fraud who doesn't seem to get that he's doing something wrong. THIS I have no sympathy for when it gets brought up.

2) Bad things would have happened to Neal in a maximum security prison and the the writers probably should have done a better job of dealing with it instead of ignoring it. And it Peter constantly telling him he'd be sent back to that isn't really fair because we all know what would happen to someone like Neal in prison. This I am sympathetic too and get why people are upset.

[doctor-fangeek.livejournal.com]

Apologies for butting in to what seems to be a mostly private discussion here, but I ended up at this post via whitecollarfan's post about it, which I found on the lj friends feed for whitecollarfic. Did that make sense? Anyway, I found this to be some really interesting meta discussion, which I really enjoyed reading, and I had some, I don't know, "very meta?" thoughts on it. Hope you don't mind. :-)

With that in mind, I just wanted to add that I think a lot of the problems some of us (viewers and/or readers & writers of fanfic) are having related to anything to do with what Neal experienced in prison, or what threats to send him back might really mean, *do* come down to what seems to be almost a throwaway line in the Pilot (and the absence of any follow-up on it, because that's not what the show is "about," so to speak, as one of you noted). It's the whole, "Still, it only took you a month and a half to escape a supermax...impressive" line. I honestly have the feeling that Jeff Eastin wrote that line to make what Neal had done (in terms of his escape) more impressive (as opposed to having some idea in his head that Neal really *should* have been in a supermax). And if you read his original Pilot script, in which the show is set in San Diego (which, btw, I can't even imagine at this point ::grin::), the prison actually has a name, and it's an actual, real Federal prison, though it's "just" a standard high security facility and not actually a "supermax" (which is really another whole animal, so to speak).

I think he (JE) also has it in his head that Neal's experience there was not, in fact, what one might expect, what we might read into things based on that supermax line. He alludes to this in a bit of dialogue from the Pilot script that didn't end up in the episode. Peter has gone to the prison to help figure out what Neal is up to, in terms of his unexpected escape. The Marshals are interviewing other inmates while Peter is going through Neal's mail. The lead guy from the Marshals asks Peter how it's going. Peter informs him that Neal may have won a cruise, then asks the marshal how it's going on his side, might Neal have been scared into an escape, to which the reply is, "No, they loved the guy." So, realistic or not, I think in JE's mind (and so presumably the minds of the writing staff) Neal did just fine in prison, managing to charm people there just like he does everywhere else, and so issues related to that are just not part of the canon.

Now how does any of that affect the reading and writing of fanfic? That's probably another question altogether. I mean, does it even "count" since it never made it to the screen? How much weight should one give to authorial intent in this sort of thing? Do we just say, "Uh, Jeff, that doesn't really make sense to us" and carry on with what we think makes more sense? I don't necessarily have an answer to this at the moment, though my inclination would be to go with the fact that since we don't actually have on-screen canon about Neal's time in prison, we can more or less interpret it how we will. Regardless, I thought it was at least interesting to have some insight into what the writers might be working with in their own minds. Mileage, obviously, may vary. :-)

[katikat.livejournal.com]

Butt in, butt in *waves*

I also thought that the writers might have fluffed it up a la The Pointman with Jack Scalia where he was also a white collar criminal and ended up in prison and after some rough beginnings, he helped his inmates with his knowledge, so they left him alone and actually liked him.

Oh, it wasn't just the Peter's line, Elizabeth also said "he escaped a maximum security prison knowing full well you would catch him" when Peter was thinking of accepting Neal's offer :)

I think that for the fanfic writers, it's mostly a decision between taking the fluffy route or going more realistic. I like both scenarios, so I don't really care either way. It could be interesting to issue a challenge and see what various writers would do with it...

BTW, where did you see the original script? I didn't know the thing about San Diego :)

[doctor-fangeek.livejournal.com]

*waves back* Thanks. Glad to be here.

So first, yeah you're right, I was forgetting about Elizabeth's line about the prison. On the other hand, I think my point remains the same - i.e. that the motivation behind that part of the set up was to be able to make Neal look especially impressive by raising the level of difficulty of his escape, rather than it having anything to do with where he would likely really have been sent for forgery, and that the the premise was meant to go in the more "fluffy" (as you so nicely put it) direction. I actually agree with you from the fanfic perspective. I think a writer could take it either way. But I think the intended canon is that Neal's time in prison was not, in fact, traumatic in the way it might have been, especially considering the "where" we've been given.

As to the original script, Jeff Eastin posted a link - I think it was maybe on his Twitter feed - to a website where he'd posted the script. It's a TV writing website of some kind, and a number of pilot scripts are linked on it. Here's the URL:

http://sites.google.com/site/tvwriting/us-drama/pilot-scripts/09-10-season

Enjoy.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

Awesome. Thank you for the link. Wah, Stokes - that's amusing :P

[whitecollarfan.livejournal.com]

This ends up being why I have trouble with some fics - because a LOT of what people are talking about is on the writers NOT the characters. I can't blame Peter for much of his comments about sending Neal back to prison because it's the writers who don't realize the implications.

If X happened because the writers thought it would be good or work for the characters, but it's really offensive or troubling - is it really right to bash the characters for it? Again I get that the point of fan fic is using the characters to work out what happened in canon but I think there are just some things people need to accept as being unrealistic and totally the fault of the writers, and to not take it out on the characters.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I think some of this might also be due to the writers not realizing what Neal in a maximum security prison would have gone through. They're trying to keep the show light and fluffy - but there are some rather serious implications they they obviously didn't consider.

I'm sure it crossed the writers minds what Neal would have actually gone through and they just opted to (no pun intended) white wash it. The tone of the show is light and fun, for the most part, and they just don't want to deal with the ramifications of Neal being a rape victim, which he almost certainly would have been in a maximum security prison. Actually, if he had been in a super max (which the prison we saw was most definitely not) he may have been spared any sort of brutalization because he would have been completely isolated 24 hours a day.

I've come up with a scenario in my own mind as to what Neal had to (or didn't have to) deal with in prison and why, but since I may use it in a fic some day I'm going to refrain from elaborating. I will say that, even if I were to assume Neal was raped, I don't have any desire to read about it. Fic, for me, is fun and escapism and seeing the characters and relationships explored in a way we likely never will on the show. The last thing I want to read about is Neal or any character being raped. I can't even watch most episodes of L&O: SVU. ;/

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I'm glad that they decided to white-wash it on the show - dealing with rape and especially male rape (which is for some unfathomable reason even more controversial) just wouldn't fit the show. All the more canon fodder for fanfics. I love to read light, angst-free fics - but sometimes I like it when the fic authors decide to take a more realistic, darker route than the show.

[asta77.livejournal.com]

I'm right there with you on the peeves as a reader. I've actually quit reading several WC fics because Peter starts spouting a long list of endearments at Neal and that is NOT the Peter I know. I mean, this is a man who most of the time calls his wife "Elizabeth" or "El" so why would he be all cutesy with Neal?

And transitions don't have to be time consuming in fic so it annoys me when writers feel they can gloss over them. I'm totally taken out of a fic if I don't know how a character got from Point A to Point B.

Another distraction is when a character seems to have three hands. As in the character has their arms (plural) wrapped around the other person, yet they are also giving them a hand job. Huh?

[katikat.livejournal.com]

Ha, I love the three hands thingy! I work as a translator so when I come across something like that in a book, I always scratch my head, wondering what to do with that and how to smooth it over... :P

[bientot.livejournal.com]

There have been panels at Escapade where people brought in fanfic sex scenes and volunteers (remaining fully clothed!) attempted re-enactment to establish whether or not it was even possible, and just how many hands/legs/whatever were involved - sort of a fannish Myth Busters.

I'd say having extra limbs definitely qualifies as OOC!

BTW - very interesting discussion. Yes.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

OMG, I would love to see that! On the other hand, being in the audience and seeing my own fic re-enacted like that - ouch!

[shaney.livejournal.com]

I think one pet peeve as a reader is when characters cry over the slightest thing. Have not really seen it in White Collar yet, but have encountered it a few times, and have closed the fics those times. I know men have the right to be emotional, but crying over the slightest thing seems too OOC for me.

I have to admit some descriptions in fic sometimes confuse me, like how does this hug work, and huh they did all that in the space of a minute in bed? Lol.

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I agree. When they have the waterfalls going over the slightest thing... Ugh. I mean, Neal is slightly prone to get teary-eyed but when it's over the top, it's just over the top!